PREP - Professional Enhancement Programs of the MAA

Abstract Algebra with GAP

A PREP Workshop

AIM log - Monday July 14, 9 am - 11:30 am

Juli Rainbolt: hello all
Math and Computer Science: hi
Donna Nonnekamp has joined this chat.
Juli Rainbolt: lets start with testing VNC
Juli Rainbolt: open VNC
Carter Lyons has joined this chat.
Juli Rainbolt: Hi Carter
Juli Rainbolt: Lets start with vnc
Carter Lyons: Okay! I am currently trying to set up Quick Time and the process is lower than I thought.
Juli Rainbolt: video is not up yet - so lets start with vnc
Carter Lyons: Okay. I will get that up and running.
Juli Rainbolt: open vnc - under file open url type the address:
Juli Rainbolt: You should see my comuter screen - I have this chat room open and couple other things.
Juli Rainbolt: computer not comuter
Juli Rainbolt: any luck?
Carter Lyons: Where do I type the url number?
Juli Rainbolt: this is the right chat room - close the other one.
Juli Rainbolt: the url number is
Juli Rainbolt: you do not need a password just enter past this.
Carter Lyons: It is forcing me to enter a password. I have done so and now I lost the connection.
Donna Nonnekamp: Go to start programs tight vnc-tight vnc viewer best compression
Donna Nonnekamp: a window will open up -type the ip in
Carter Lyons: Okay. I am lookng at a desktop.
Juli Rainbolt: great - lets try quicktime.
Juli Rainbolt: stand by.
Donna Nonnekamp: Go to start programs quick time-quick time player
Donna Nonnekamp: File-open URL in New Player
Donna Nonnekamp: In the box type the following- do not click on the link it will open real player
Donna Nonnekamp: rtsp://
Juli Rainbolt: you should see me working on the computer and hear us talking.
Carter Lyons: My tight VCN connectin just clossed on me.
Juli Rainbolt: (but we are not saying very much)
Donna Nonnekamp: You probably should download and install the newer VNC at
Carter Lyons: I just did that yesterday.
Carter Lyons: I can see and hear you on the video feed.
Juli Rainbolt: great!
Donna Nonnekamp: Now try realvnc-run from the desktop
Donna Nonnekamp: or wherever it is installed
Carter Lyons: I do not have real vnc
Juli Rainbolt: to get real vnc:
Janet McShane has joined this chat.
Janet McShane: Hi Julianne
Juli Rainbolt: Janet - we are also testing with Carter right now.
Janet McShane: Ok
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet , we would like to test the quicktime first
Donna Nonnenkamp: Do you have a PC?
Carter Lyons: Do I want a full application download or a viewer only application?
Janet McShane: Yes
Donna Nonnenkamp: Carter, You just need the viewer
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet Go to start programs-quicktime -quicktime player
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet then go to file open URL in new window and a box will open
Donna Nonnenkamp: Type in the following - do not click on the link it will open realplayer instead of quicktime
Carter Lyons: vnc server number? Is correct?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Type rtsp://
Donna Nonnenkamp: carter yes
Janet McShane: Ok - I've done that
Carter Lyons: I just lost audio
Juli Rainbolt: carter - can you hear us?
Juli Rainbolt: janet - can you see and hear us?
Janet McShane: I an see and hear you
Carter Lyons: no. I do seem to have the real vnc up.
Janet McShane: Ok
Donna Nonnenkamp: check your volume control carter
Janet McShane: Am I seeing Julianne?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet we will now test the vnc..Do you have tight vnc or real vnc?
Janet McShane: I have tight VNC?
Carter Lyons: All volume controls are on. I hear the beep when a message is sent. It sounds like there is background noise from your broadcast room. But it disapears as soon as the message is sent.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Go to start programs-tight vnc-tight vncviewer best compression
Donna Nonnenkamp: A box should open
Donna Nonnenkamp: Type the following in the box Janet
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet type
Donna Nonnenkamp: Then click ok Janet
Donna Nonnenkamp: Julie is starting a quicktime audio feed only.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Go to quicktime again and open url in new window. you will have two quicktime windows open at once
janetlbeery has joined this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: type in the following do not click on the link it will open real player
Donna Nonnenkamp: rtsp://
Donna Nonnenkamp: Hi Janet B
Juli Rainbolt: Janet Beery - we are testing two other people right now.
Juli Rainbolt: Janet B - lets start with quick time.
janetlbeery: hi julianne. I'll be ready for testing in a moment. I have to open quicktime and VNC--and GAP.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Let's start with quicktime Janet B
janetlbeery: OK, what do I do with it?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Once quick time is open Janet B -go to file openURL in a new window then type in the following DO NOT CLICK ON THE LINK it will open real player instead of quicktime
Janet McShane: I can see your laptop
Juli Rainbolt: Janet Mc - great.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet b type in rtsp://
Carter Lyons: Okay! I reopened quicktime and now I have both sound and video again.
Janet McShane: Ok I'll hang on
Donna Nonnenkamp: Good Janet MC
Juli Rainbolt: Janet - can you see and hear?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet B - how is it going?
janetlbeery: Yes, I can!
Donna Nonnenkamp: That is great
Donna Nonnenkamp: We are now going to start VNC - do you have tight vnc or realvnc?
janetlbeery: OK
janetlbeery: the first one, since I downloaded it a week ago
Donna Nonnenkamp: Go to start programs tightvnc tightvnc viewer (best compression) and a window will open -type the following in the window
Donna Nonnenkamp:
Donna Nonnenkamp: You should then be able to see Julie's screen
janetlbeery: sorry, i'm having trouble finding the vnc window on my screen!
Donna Nonnenkamp: Julie will open a gap window and you should see it open - did you have trouble opening vnc ?
Donna Nonnenkamp: look under start programs and then tight vnc-tight vnc best compression
janetlbeery: I believe I've opened vnc. It's on my list of open applications, but i can't find it on my screen and can't get commands for it. i'll keep looking.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Close it and reopen it and a box should open up for you to type in the ip of Julie's computer
Donna Nonnenkamp: We will be stopping the test video stream shortly and then we will start the actual stream
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet how is it going?
janetlbeery: yes, I believe i'm looking at your computer. now i've just got to get everything arranged on my screen.
Juli Rainbolt: great - you are set!
Donna Nonnenkamp: Good Janet
janetlbeery: no, i think i'm ok. thanks.
Donna Nonnenkamp: VNC will continue.. but in the next few minutes we will start the stream for the class
Carter Lyons: will we need to sign on to quicktime again
Donna Nonnenkamp: Great Janet
Donna Nonnenkamp: you can leave QuickTime it open just go to file open URL in new window and type in the new numbers- Julie will send that via IM as soon as we are ready
Jim Woeppel has joined this chat.
Ayan Mahalanobis has joined this chat.
Ayan Mahalanobis: Hello
Robert Talbert has joined this chat.
drvazz has joined this chat.
brooksbankpa has joined this chat.
Ken Yanosko has joined this chat.
Meral Arnavut has joined this chat.
Meral Arnavut: hello
Silvia La Falce has joined this chat.
Silvia La Falce: Hi, I'm Silvia.
Tracy Hamilton has joined this chat.
sklarjk has joined this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Hi
brooksbankpa: Hi Everyone.
Dominic Soda has joined this chat.
Robert Talbert: Good morning
Dominic Soda: Good Morning!
drvazz: Hello! I'm Dana.
sklarjk: Hi!
Donna Nonnenkamp: If you have not opened QT and vnc please open them now
Ken Yanosko: OK I have good connections.
Donna Nonnenkamp: start with quicktime Open the audio first
drvazz: I can't get VNC today...are you broadcasting yet?
Donna Nonnenkamp: file open URL in new window for audio rtsp://
Robert Talbert: Our email server is down and I did not print out the URL to use for QuickTime. Could someone repeat that, please?
Robert Talbert: Thanks nonnymom
Donna Nonnenkamp: for video rtsp://
Donna Nonnenkamp: open quick time in new window to enter each
Donna Nonnenkamp: excuse me file -open url in new window
Tracy Hamilton: i'm having trouble with vnc--it keeps shutting itself down
Jim Woeppel: I am getting Not Found
Juli Rainbolt: all - we'll start the class a few minute late here this first day - want to be sure all are on board first
drvazz: I'm OK now
janetlbeery: I, too, have to keep re-opening vnc. I'll try to load the newer one during our first break.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dana and tracy use real vnc download from
Robert Talbert: I am getting "Failed to connect to server".
Robert Talbert: The address I am using is
Ayan Mahalanobis: vnc server url
Donna Nonnenkamp: It is a fast download.. download to your desktop and then click to run
Donna Nonnenkamp: vnc is
Donna Nonnenkamp: Robert how are you doing?
Robert Talbert: VNC is working fine now, thanks.
Donna Nonnenkamp: great
Donna Nonnenkamp: anyone still having problems?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet B- How are you doing?
Janet McShane: I have lost audio and video
Tracy Hamilton: so far real vnc seems to be working
Donna Nonnenkamp: restart quicktime Janet MC
Donna Nonnenkamp: Good tracy
Donna Nonnenkamp: Open URL in new player Janet MC and then type in the rtsp://
Donna Nonnenkamp: again do not click on the link Janet MC it will open real player instead of quicktime
Donna Nonnenkamp: Everyone ok
janetlbeery: Sorry, I was off trying to download vnc and am having trouble getting the mac version. I'll restart the one I have.
Donna Nonnenkamp: ok
Janet McShane: I'm ok
Robert Talbert: I'm good.
Tracy Hamilton: ok
Meral Arnavut: Iam OK too.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Janet B if you are on a mac Russell will send the URL
janetlbeery: great, thanks for mac url
Math and Computer Science: Janet B, for Mac go to and follow the links for the mac version.
Math and Computer Science: the other one is vncthing at
Carter Lyons: I have lost both audio and video. I will ttry to reconnect.
Donna Nonnenkamp: close and reopen quicktime
Donna Nonnenkamp: carter are you back?
Carter Lyons: yes, The reception is going in and out. But it is clear enough to follow along.
Ayan Mahalanobis: Lots of static.
Silvia La Falce: Having trouble with video, but can follow well with having another QT window with audio only.
sklarjk: Is there any way of making GAP do perms from right to left instead?
Math and Computer Science: no
Dominic Soda: Is there a problem with the audio?
Ayan Mahalanobis: yes.
Math and Computer Science: the software was developed with a "functions on the right" philosophy
drvazz: Can you write the numbers bigger?
sklarjk: Yeah, I remembered that from using it before. It's too bad that's so unstandard, at lesat for American undergrads...
Donna Nonnenkamp: Will do julie is writing the numbers bigger!
Math and Computer Science: they seem to adjust just fine
Math and Computer Science: and it may even even them think about what they are doinf more carefully
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic. the audio seems fine - are you able to hear now?
sklarjk: Do you teach all perms from left to right in your classes, to be consistent? Or teach both ways?
Math and Computer Science: right to left in class - just right to left when using GAP
sklarjk: Question: I typed in Factorization(G,(2,3)), and got an answer. What are x1 and x2 in that case?
sklarjk: Since we only gave one generator for the group G.
Math and Computer Science: they are the two generators
sklarjk: For G, not K.
Math and Computer Science: for K
sklarjk: Right, but I typed in Factorization(G,(2,3)), not (K,(2,3)).
sklarjk: And got x1^5*x2*x1=(2,3)
Math and Computer Science: yes, it's telling you what (2,3) equals in terms of the two generators
sklarjk: My question is not regarding Factorization(K,(2,3)).
Dominic Soda: No I've opened and closed it several times
Ayan Mahalanobis: lost audio!
Math and Computer Science: sorry, try the Q agaub Jessica
Math and Computer Science: oops, again
sklarjk: No. (2,3) is an odd perm, (1,3,2) and (1,3,4,5,6) are even. So they can't generate (2,3).
sklarjk: YES!
Math and Computer Science: good!
sklarjk: Can we wait a second for this question to be answered? Or should I email later?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic try just the audio feed to see if that will work
Ayan Mahalanobis: lost audio and video is bad.
sklarjk: The question was: I typed in Factorization(G,(2,3)) and got the answer x1^5*x2*x1. These can't be the even perms r and s. So what are x1 and x2?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Check your preferences in the quick time
sklarjk: Does this make sense?
Robert Talbert: I think GAP must think of G as a dihedral group of order 720, which means it's generated by a standard rotation and reflection. Maybe it can automatically figure out what the rot and refl are.
Math and Computer Science: ah, something has indeed gone wrong there.
brooksbankpa: Jessica: Isn't "G" the symmetric group? x1 and x2 are the standard generators for S_6
Math and Computer Science: G really was just A6
brooksbankpa: Try Generators( G );
Donna Nonnenkamp: edit preference qt preferences and connection speed. If you are on a Lan make sure it is set for 1.5 MBPS T1 LAN
sklarjk: No, G is S6. K is A6.
Math and Computer Science: right, K is A6
Ayan Mahalanobis: LOst audio and video is bad.
sklarjk: Generators didn't work, it wanted a value...
brooksbankpa: GeneratorsOgGroup( G )?
Math and Computer Science: Of
Donna Nonnenkamp: Ayan close quick time and reopen
brooksbankpa: make that GeneratorsOfGroup
sklarjk: Awesome! Thanks, Pete!
Ayan Mahalanobis: It came back on by itself.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Ayan great!
Ayan Mahalanobis: Yes!
sklarjk: No. What it is is that if you just type in Factorization(G,(2,3)), it factors (2,3) in terms of the standard generators of the group, (1,2,3,4,5,6) and (1,2).
sklarjk: It was not a typo, it was an experiment.
Math and Computer Science: OK!
Jim Woeppel: Is the second generator coorect?
Donna Nonnenkamp: dominic is your connection ok?
Math and Computer Science: Should be (1,3,2) for K, but fine for G
Ayan Mahalanobis: Lost audio again and video is bad.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Ayan are you on a LAN?
Ayan Mahalanobis: Yes.
brooksbankpa: I have a list of generators for the Rubik's cube if anyone is interested...
Math and Computer Science: good, please share with the group
Donna Nonnenkamp: Go to the quick time preferences and check to see if the connection speed is set to T1/Lan
Dominic Soda: still no audio
brooksbankpa: shall I email the file to you?
Math and Computer Science: yes, please
Donna Nonnenkamp: Ayan please open quick time edit--preferences --qtime preferences-- connection speed 1.5 MBPS/T1/LAN
Dominic Soda: I'v done all of the above and still no audio
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic - open another window in quicktime keep the video open
Ken Yanosko: I was also having a lot of audio-video breakup, so I opened two qt windows, one with video and one with audio only. I can watch the video (which occasionally breaks up) but the audio remains good.
Donna Nonnenkamp: file open URL in NEW player rtsp://
Ken Yanosko: Make sure the audio only window is selected so you hear that one.
Donna Nonnenkamp: remember not to click on the link it will open real player instead of quicktime
Dominic Soda: still no audio
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic, did you have audio before?
Jim Woeppel: I got the same random elements. Does gap always produce random elements in the same order?
sklarjk: I forget: how do you suppress output in GAP?
brooksbankpa: double semicolon
sklarjk: Thanks again, Pete  .
brooksbankpa: sure.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic, do you have external speakers? Please check volume settings.
drvazz: Does ctrl-p just repeat the last command? Can you go back and copy and paste an earlier command?
brooksbankpa: Dana: you can also use the "up" arrow to recover previous commands
drvazz: never mind
drvazz: got it
Math and Computer Science: copying and pasting works fine on PC and Mac versions, but not as useful on Unix/Linux, since the new line is not editable then
sklarjk: What is the notation for the identity element of a group in GAP? (Sounds like another question for Master Pete, eh?)
Math and Computer Science: () for perm gps
sklarjk: Cool.
brooksbankpa: Master, eh?
Math and Computer Science: Yes, Pete comes in as a GAP master!
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic is it working yet?
Dominic Soda: no i can't hear anything or see anything except the vnc session
Donna Nonnenkamp: Did you quit quicktime?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic- let's try just the audio feed first.
Donna Nonnenkamp: quit quicktime and close all quicktime windows
Dominic Soda: Yes several times, and I reset the connection speed, I was getting video w/o audio, but now i'm getting neither.
Donna Nonnenkamp: dominic -Then restart quicktime and open the audio stream only
Donna Nonnenkamp: let's try just audio by itself and see if we can get that working Dominic
Dominic Soda: okay
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic once you restart quicktime - file-open url in new window type in rtsp:// -Do not click on the link -type it into the box
Donna Nonnenkamp: We are changing the tape and Juli and Russell are changing places
drvazz: Should I have lost video?
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic do you have audio now?
Dominic Soda: I am gong to reboot my system completely. I'll be back in a bit.
Dominic Soda has left this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic ok
sklarjk: GAP question: suppose you want to let a be the element (1,2,...,40) in S_40. Is there an abbreviated way to write this in GAP (I assume there is!)?
brooksbankpa: probably: shorthand for the list is: [1..40]. I think you can turn the list
Dominic Soda has declined the invitation to this chat.
brooksbankpa: into a permutation. I'll check how.
Math and Computer Science: Thanks for checking peter
sklarjk: Thanks, Master.
drvazz: Just FYI for Juli and Russell: it's a little hard to follow you around the computer screen, since we have QT, Gap, and IM open in different windows, so can only let VNC have part of the screen
Math and Computer Science: I recommend putting the VNC window big and in front of everythiing else.
Math and Computer Science: You don't need to look at QT unless we are
Math and Computer Science: writing on the board.
Tong Wu has joined this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong do you need any help getting your connections
brooksbankpa: Jessica: l:=List([1..40],i->i+1);
brooksbankpa: Add(l,1);
Donna Nonnenkamp: Do you have audio and video and gap running?
brooksbankpa: s:=PermList(l);
Dominic Soda has joined this chat.
brooksbankpa: whoops, l:=List([1..39],i->i+1);
Tong Wu: hi
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic you are back.. good..
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic did you start quicktime -audio only yet?
Dominic Soda: I have audio!
Donna Nonnenkamp: Great Dominic.. did you open vnc?
sklarjk: s:=PermList(l) seems to give me s=().
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong do you have everything running?
brooksbankpa: try l:=[2..40];
brooksbankpa: Add(l,1);
brooksbankpa: s:=PermList(l);
brooksbankpa: Is l=[2,3,...,40,1] on your screen?
Dominic Soda: I have audio and vnc
sklarjk: Yes, got it.
brooksbankpa: great. Don't use permutations much these days!
sklarjk: Hmm... ok, I have l:=[1..40]. Then if I do s:=PermList(l), I get s=(), which isn't right, right?
Donna Nonnenkamp: good Dominic.. now file open URL in new player and type in the video url rtsp:// and see if you can also get video
brooksbankpa: if l=[1..40] you will get the identity.
sklarjk: Oh! I think I see.
Tong Wu: I try to run Quick Time
brooksbankpa: you should have [2,...,40,1]
Donna Nonnenkamp: Russell's gap has locked up
sklarjk: Sweet! Got it Pete, thanx.
Donna Nonnenkamp: give him a minute or two please
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong start the audio first and then the video
Dominic Soda: i have both now
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic awesome
Dominic Soda: will the qt log be available also i missed quite a bit of the discussion
Tong Wu has left this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Dominic -yes also the qt video will be available
Ayan Mahalanobis: Can we have the latex file about the rotation?
Math and Computer Science: yes - we will get to you a pdf version of the rotations.
Math and Computer Science: we will try to get this to you during the brake this morning.
Tong Wu has joined this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong, do you need some help?
Tong Wu: I have to restart my computer.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong -ok
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong did you start quicktime?
Tong Wu: yes
Donna Nonnenkamp: Juli suggests that if you have time during the break review and try to work out section 2.1 and 3.1 and 4.1
Tong Wu: I need the URL
Donna Nonnenkamp: We will also put up the log files for gap and IM
Ayan Mahalanobis: 2:30 Central?
Math and Computer Science: yes central
Carter Lyons has left this chat.
drvazz has left this chat.
Robert Talbert: Will we be using the same URL's as we did this morning for qt and vnc?
Robert Talbert: Thanks.
Tong Wu: I am sorry. I am using a different computer. My laptop is down.
Ayan Mahalanobis has left this chat.
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Dominic Soda: bye
Dominic Soda has left this chat.
Math and Computer Science: The only changes to addresses will be the a changes to a p (a for am, p for pm)
Tracy Hamilton has left this chat.
Ken Yanosko: bye
Ken Yanosko has left this chat.
Silvia La Falce: bye now.
Donna Nonnenkamp: This afternoon the connections will be for quick time audio will be as follows rtsp:// and for video it will be rtsp://
Silvia La Falce has left this chat.
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janetlbeery has left this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: Tong try to connect with us a little early this afternoon so we can get you connected prior to the workshop
Math and Computer Science: Any tech questions before we sign off
Math and Computer Science: ??
Jim Woeppel has left this chat.
brooksbankpa has left this chat.
Tong Wu: Th QuickTime says 404: not Found
Meral Arnavut has left this chat.
Donna Nonnenkamp: We are not broadcasting any more.. please check with us about 2:15 Central time...

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This PREP workshop is made possible by the NSF grant DUE: 0089005